This post is mainly for my friend who is in all likelihood going to buy an S2000 and join me, Fil, Nino and just about everyone else in the S2000 Challenge Series. The subject is: how to build a competitive S2000 Challenge Street Class car from a bone-stock non-CR S2000. I also hope to include a realistic cost analysis of the different modifications possible. So let's get started. First, the rules:
AERO
0.25 = air dam bumper, any add-on lip (including OEM), canards, wind deflector
0.50 = splitter
0.25 = diffuser
1.25 = level 1 wing (CR, APR200 low mount, Mugen)
2.25 = level 2 wing (Voltex, J's, APR300, APR200 high mount, C-West)
TIRE/WHEEL
0.75 = level 1 street tires (RT615, RS2, MX, CSC3, PS2)
1.50 = level 2 street tires (Z1, AD07, RE01R, R1R, 595RSR, NT05, RE070)
3.50 = R-comp (RA1, R888, NT01, A048, PSC)
1.00 = 235~265 front tires
0.5 = 9" wheel or wider and/or widening front/rear track with wheels or spacers lower than OEM offsets (front +55, rear +65, not counting camber effect)
POWER
0.25 = non-oem intake system or any mods to OEM intake (including filter, snorkel, or piping)
0.25 = non-oem header
0.25 = test pipe
0.25 = cat-back exhaust
0.75 = ECU
1.50 = engine internal mods
3.00 = FI
SUSPENSION
1.00 = non-coilover suspension including CR suspension
2.50 = coilover suspension
DRIVETRAIN
0.50 = clutch type LSD
0.75 = final drive
WEIGHT REDUCTION
0.25 = softtop removal (but you must run a hardtop). Note: Penalty for soft-top removal waived if you have a 4pt roll-bar, 5-6pt harness, and an approved race seat. Interior removal on installation of safety equipment are not penalized.
0.25 = passenger seat removal
Street Class is limited to 5 points.
Modified Class is limited to 11 points.
Anything above 11 points is Unlimited Class.
Let's begin...
Aerodynamics
I feel like the S2000 is decent, but not great in this category. It does generate a significant amount of high-speed lift, especially in the rear. That is, as speeds increase, lift increases and your cornering ability decreases. This could even be dangerous, especially at a track like Willow Springs International Raceway, where you should be apexing Turn 8 at over 110mph!
Therefore, a Level-1 wing is a must. I recommend the APR GTC-200 wing because it is light, adjustable and I think more efficient (i.e. more downforce, less drag). The CR wing will do as well, especially if you want that OEM look. Anything more would be a Level-2 wing, and would not be an efficient use of the 5 points allotted for Street Class. Front aerodynamics would also be quite nice, but not as necessary. In fact, I would recommend going with the rear wing first, then assessing the high-speed handling balance, then deciding whether or not to get front aero. On a staggered 225/255 tire setup, I found that rear wing induced too much understeer, and I hope to acquire front aero to help increase front grip. On a non-staggered 255/255 tire setup, front aero may induce too much oversteer.
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing - $530
0.25 = OEM CR Lip (optional) - $450
Tire/Wheel
The AP2 (MY2004+) S2000's come with 17" wheels, which are the perfect size for our needs. The wheel size is 17x7 +55 front, 17x8.5 +65 rear. The tire size is 215/45R17 front, 245/40R17 rear. There are two ways you can build a Street Class S2000 car, and it is based on which tire you choose: street tire or DOT-R tire.
The best street tire now is the Bridgestone Potenza RE-11, which is reported to be a full second quicker at a 1-minute 15-second course than its predecessor, the RE-01R (also another excellent tire). When DOT-R tires (Toyo R888) were tested, they were shown to be only 2 seconds quicker than same-sized RE-01R at a 2-minute 5-second course like Buttonwillow. So clearly, the RE-11 is closing the gap between street tire and R-compound tire. The R-compound may have the advantage over longer track sessions in the heat, but since S2000 challenge is Time-Trial based (you get two laps to make it count), R-comps may even have a hard time getting the tires up to temperature, while Street tires will be at their optimum operating range. Given this information, there are two options:
Street Tire: Since RE-11 is only 1.5 points, you can run a non-staggered setup with 255/40R17 tires all around for another point. On a budget, the Dunlop Z1 Star Specs can be used.
1.50 = Level 2 Street Tire (RE-11 or Z1 SS) - $945 (minus $100 rebate) or $713
1.00 = 255-width front tire
0.00 = AP2 Rear Wheels in Front - $400
DOT-R Tire: Since DOT-R tires are already 3.5 points, you don't have much room for anything else, especially if you're going with the rear wing. You are forced to use 225/45R17 front and 255/40R17 rear. If money is no object, the Toyo R888 would be a great choice (since the 225 front tire is much wider than any other 225-size tire), whereas if one is on a budget, the Nitto NT01 is the better alternative.
3.50 = DOT-R Tire (R888 or NT01) - $656 or $792
Suspension
This is completely dependent on what type of tire you choose, above. Again, if you're going with DOT-R, there is just no room for any non-OEM modifications. In fact, even CR suspension parts are excluded. So the best thing is to get the stiffest non-CR springs you can find. That would mean the front springs from MY2008-2009 (284lbs/in) and the rear springs from MY2002-2003 (306lbs/in). You could also go with the matching shock absorbers, but they're all valved so similarly and the spring rates are so close together, that it wouldn't make much difference, especially for the cost. Sway bars are a free modification--you can go with the thickest or thinnest OEM or aftermarket sway bars for no point penalty. Therefore, sway bars should be used to fine-tune the handling characteristics once everything else is set. You could even go with an adjustable sway bar to fine tune balance from one track to another.
If you decide to go with non-stagger street tires, then a very affordable solution is to go with CR suspension. CR has much stiffer spring rates (389lbs/in front, 349lbs/in rear) and increased damping force to match. The front-biased spring rates (i.e. the front springs are stiffer than the rear), would work perfectly with the non-stagger tire setup (since non-staggered tire setups on the S2000 chassis tends to induce a bit of oversteer). Or, you could use the CR shock absorbers and go with any aftermarket spring for even higher spring rates. If money is no object, then custom-valved Koni's with custom springs (for example 650lbs/in front and rear Hypercoil springs), would do very nicely! In fact, these may even be better than full coilover suspensions offered by the likes of KW or TEIN, without the 2.5-point penalty!
1.00 = non-coilover suspension
Prices:
CR-suspension used: $500-800 (recommended)
CR-suspension new: $1200
Custom Koni with Hypercoil: $3000+
Also, camber kits are free-mods. The S2000 has some camber adjustability, but its range is limited, especially in the front. For example, if you were to max out the camber front and rear, you would achieve something like -1.2 front camber and -2.4 rear camber. That is not nearly enough camber to make full use of the tires, and it will lead to rapid outer shoulder wear and even disintegration. There are two very good options:
SPC Performance Camber Kit - $170/pair
Pros: adjustable sliding bolt, increases dynamic camber
Cons: more moving parts
J's Racing Camber Kit - $400/pair
Pros: no moving parts, increases track, will correct suspension geometry if lowered
Cons: expensive
Engine / Power
This should be the last thing to modify, and should be approached only if there is free room for points. Two things definitely worth getting is a lightweight cat-back exhaust and the Berk Technology High-Flow Catalytic Converter. The OEM exhaust system weighs a staggering 65 pounds, and much of that weight is concentrated behind the rear axle (compared to 7 or 8lbs for titanium exhaust systems and 24lbs for stainless-steel ones). The exhaust is also very restrictive, and people have measured gains as large as 15 whp. So, if there is extra room for points, a cat-back exhaust with high-flow cat would be a very good option. I would recommend T1R 70R V3 ($850, stainless steel) or the T1R 70RT ($1400, titanium).
0.25 = Cat-Back Exhaust - $850 to $1400
0.00 = Berk High-Flow Cat - $250
Safety
Safety modifications are all considered free mods, but are definitely recommended. First, a bucket seat is probably the best investment you can make in terms of driver improvement. You are held in place snugly, allowing you to focus on driving rather than using your elbows and knees or even your hands to brace yourself against high lateral-Gs. A roll bar is also a worthwhile investment, and allows you the ability to use a 5-point harness for even more safety and comfort.
0.00 = Recaro SPG w/ Taitec Rail - $850
0.00 = Bethania Garage Roll Bar - $600
0.00 = Schroth 5-Point Harness - $275
Miscellaneous
Another excellent investment for driver improvement is a GPS Datalogger. GPS Datalogger systems such as RacePak G2X and Trackmate have GPS antennas that track your exact location on track 20 times a second and built-in accelerometers and computers to track your car inputs. You can see where you're not making the most out of your car, compare different driving lines and see which is faster, etc. The biggest advantage is being able to compare data with fellow drivers and seeing where they're faster than you and why. Therefore, the decision of which datalogger to buy should be based on which is more popular amongst your friends. Hint: I've got a G2X, and so will Fil very soon.
0.00 = G2X Datalogger - $850
Conclusion
So while the rules make it appear as though there are infinite ways to build an S2000 Challenge Street Class car, there are actually very few was to make one that is competitive. In reality, there are really only two ways.
Non-Stagger Street Tire
1.50 = Level-2 Street Tire (RE-11) - $845
1.00 = 255-Width Front Tire
1.00 = Non-Coilover Suspension - $800
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing - $530
0.25 = Option*
*Option: based on the combination above, if you need more front downforce, buy the CR front lip. If front downforce is not an issue and high-speed balance is good, buy the cat-back exhaust.
Free Mods
0.00 = AP2 Rear Wheel in Front - $400
0.00 = Camber Kit - $350-800
0.00 = Berk High-Flow Cat - $250
0.00 = Bucket Seat - $850
0.00 = Roll Bar - $600
0.00 = 5-Point Harness - $275
0.00 = GPS Datalogger - $800
Staggered DOT-R Tire
3.50 = DOT-R Tire (R888 or NT01) - $656
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing - $530
0.25 = OEM CR Lip - $450
Free Mods
0.00 = Optimize OEM non-CR spring - $120-240
0.00 = AP2 Rear Wheel in Front - $400
0.00 = 10mm Front Spacer - $120
0.00 = Camber Kit - $350-800
0.00 = Bucket Seat - $850
0.00 = Roll Bar - $600
0.00 = 5-Point Harness - $275
0.00 = GPS Datalogger - $800
0.00 = Berk HFC (probably small gains with OEM exhaust) - $250
Must Have Modifications
Regardless of whether or not you buy any of these above, there are some things you should do to keep the S2000 track worthy. This is mainly on brakes.
Carbotech XP10 Front, XP8 Rear Pads - $325
Centric Rotors - $190
Motul RBF600 - $17/bottle
Any questions, comments, opinions?
Monday, April 27, 2009
Monday, April 20, 2009
Great success!
Only four months ago, when I ran Buttonwillow with SpeedVentures, someone from the SV crew (I think his name is Dave) looked at my laptimes and said to me during a download meeting: "how's it going out there? Is your arm tired from giving point-by's?" I am obviously still a beginner and have a long way to go, but it is nice to see some progress and a bit of reward and recognition as well.
With the assistance of some very key modifications, namely the APR GTC-200 wing, 225/255 Nitto NT01 tires and SPC camber kit, I ran a laptime of 2:07.3 to win First Place Street Class in the SpeedVentures S2000 Challenge. The wing and tire combination was magical out at Buttonwillow, and the only complaint was some high speed understeer. Now the only trick is to increase front grip, which I will work on before the next event.
Since I am running AP2 rears all around, the front tires are at +65 offset. I will push that back out using a Project Kics 10mm spacer (to reach +55 offset specifications). I will also try to get some front aero via AP2 bumper with CR lip or APR GT front bumper. This will hopefully solve some of the high speed understeer I was experiencing at Buttonwillow. I am now getting quite a bit of body roll with the R-comps, so I think ordering MY2008 front spring is a good idea. Especially nice is that I won a $100 gift certificate to HardTopGuy.com, who can probably order those for me.
Emilio, the current points leader in the S2000 Challenge Series, did not compete this weekend due to some car troubles. He told my friend whom he was instructing: "if I brought my car, it was going to be an easy win." Last time at Buttonwillow, he ran a 2:06.9 in much cooler temps with a much bigger wing. Sure, he probably got a bit faster by fine-tuning his setup, but so will I. Hopefully some of us will continue getting better so that the 10 points are no longer automatic... for anyone.
With the assistance of some very key modifications, namely the APR GTC-200 wing, 225/255 Nitto NT01 tires and SPC camber kit, I ran a laptime of 2:07.3 to win First Place Street Class in the SpeedVentures S2000 Challenge. The wing and tire combination was magical out at Buttonwillow, and the only complaint was some high speed understeer. Now the only trick is to increase front grip, which I will work on before the next event.
Since I am running AP2 rears all around, the front tires are at +65 offset. I will push that back out using a Project Kics 10mm spacer (to reach +55 offset specifications). I will also try to get some front aero via AP2 bumper with CR lip or APR GT front bumper. This will hopefully solve some of the high speed understeer I was experiencing at Buttonwillow. I am now getting quite a bit of body roll with the R-comps, so I think ordering MY2008 front spring is a good idea. Especially nice is that I won a $100 gift certificate to HardTopGuy.com, who can probably order those for me.
Emilio, the current points leader in the S2000 Challenge Series, did not compete this weekend due to some car troubles. He told my friend whom he was instructing: "if I brought my car, it was going to be an easy win." Last time at Buttonwillow, he ran a 2:06.9 in much cooler temps with a much bigger wing. Sure, he probably got a bit faster by fine-tuning his setup, but so will I. Hopefully some of us will continue getting better so that the 10 points are no longer automatic... for anyone.
Monday, April 13, 2009
Where I am and where I'm going...
So I figure I should try to jot down some notes on where my S2000 is at this point, my impressions and where I'd like to go from here. My ultimate goal is to be competitive in the SpeedVentures S2000 Challenge Street Class. Obviously, most of the work needs to be on driver improvement (as I've only done a handful of track days with the S2000 so far), but I want to at least build a competitive car sooner than later. The S2000 Challenge Rules.
Right now I've got a stock MY2003 S2000 with the following point modifications:
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing
1.50 = Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R Tires
That's a total of 2.75 points out of the 5.00 points possible to stay in Street Class. Where I'd like to go in terms of point modifications:
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing
3.50 = DOT-R Tires (Toyo R888 or Nitto NT-01)
0.25 = OEM CR or APR GT Front Bumper
I think the DOT-R tires will give me a definite advantage over running street tires, especially in the summer heat when even the best street tires will start overheating within a few laps. Supposedly, they are worth about 2 seconds at Buttonwillow, but I am willing to bet that the difference is larger than that, especially once the car is optimized for R-compounds. Also, I am going to try a little trick to get the staggered 225/255 tire setup to behave more like a nonstaggered setup by increasing the grip of the 225 tires (by putting them on AP2 rear wheels with a 10mm spacer to get 17x8.5 +55). Also, I plan to get a CR front end or APR GT front bumper to increase downforce in the front as well.
Of course right now I've also got a good amount of "free" modifications, that is, modifications that don't count as points:
SPC Camber Kit Front
4 x AP2 Rear Wheels (Front and Rear)
Carbotech XP10/XP8 Brake Pads
Goodridge SS Lines
Recaro SPG on Taitec Rails
K&N Drop-In Filter
I'd also like to make some changes in terms of the "free" modifications.
Add SPC Camber Kit in the rear
Upgrade to Carbotech XP12/XP10 Brake Pads
Replace with StopTech SS Lines
Replace with MY2008 Front Suspension
Replace with MY2004+ Rear Swaybar
When I had the front SPC Camber Kit installed, I had hoped that I would be able to get around -2.8 camber in the rear so I could run -2.5 front and -2.8 rear. Unfortunately, while the rear right was able to get -2.8, the rear left maxed out at only -2.4. This was the weak link that forced me to go with -2.4 all around. My current alignment specs:
Front Camber: -2.4
Front Castor: 6.5
Front Toe: 0
Rear Camber: -2.4
Rear Toe: 1/8" toe-in
From my last session at Streets of Willow, I felt like the car was a bit too loose, especially without the help of the rear wing in low-speed turns (30-60mph). I would get corner entry oversteer, mid-corner understeer that would sometimes snap out, then corner exit oversteer. So mostly oversteer that required a very careful right foot and lots of correction to the steering wheel. Running worn-down RE-01Rs probably didn't help the cause here.
I really don't want to solve the problem with messing with camber. I believe that there is an optimum camber angle for a given tire and suspension setup, and messing with it to adjust handling characteristics will result in less grip. That means I'll be out there next event with a probe-type tire pyrometer to measure the temperature spread across the tire. I'll be doing this especially if I upgrade to DOT-R. I am willing to bet that both the front and rear tires will want more negative camber, which will necessitate me installing the SPC Camber Kit in the rear.
Next, to tackle the oversteer issue, I think I will try installing MY2008 front suspension (hopefully the whole coilover if I can find a used set for a good price, otherwise just the spring). This will increase the front spring rate from 249lbs/in to 284lbs/in. Yes, that seems like only a little, but my spring rate ratio would go from 249/306 to a much more manageable 284/306 (almost equal spring rates all around). If this doesn't solve the problem, I may opt to install a thinner rear sway bar, either by swapping sway bars with Fil (from 27.2mm to 26.5mm) or buying a 2004+ rear bar (27.2mm to 25.4mm).
I also think that the extra grip of the R-compounds will require an upgrade to the brake pads. From Carbotech XP10/XP8 to a more temperature resistant XP12/XP10, which also has more bite. As far as brakes, I've never been satisfied with the feel of my brakes. I think I will do a complete brake job sometime in late May or early June involving a complete brake caliper rebuild, replace the Goodridge SS kit with some made by StopTech or Endless, adjust the parking brake, inspect the lines, etc. There is a weak link somewhere, and I will find it (I suspect it may be as simple as a parking brake adjustment).
The next event coming up is S2KC #5 at Buttonwillow Raceway. When I was last there with Redline, I was able to do a 2:12.9 with a passenger and a bit of traffic at the end. I think without a passenger and without running into traffic, I would have done a 2:11.7 or so. Supposedly a wing is worth about 4 seconds at Buttonwillow, and R-comps are worth about 2 seconds, so if I everything goes well and I can get my act together, I stand to lose 6 seconds or so next time, which would put me in the 2:05 range. Last Buttonwillow event, Street Class was won with Emilio's best lap of 2:06.9. I'm sure he's got some new tricks up his sleeve, so it should be an interesting match... not that I would hold such lofty dreams of actually winning Street Class... not yet at least.
In preparation for this next event, I need to order some new rear pads. Since I'm planning on going up a step, I will order XP10 rear pads (so I can order XP12 front replacement when the time comes). Then, I need to acquire 4xAP2 rear wheels and get some DOT-R's mounted on them. I will either have to machine out two wheels to fit the front 70.1mm bore, or I might run a 5mm spacer in the front. Who knows, maybe I'll get lazy and just run the 225 R-comp on the 7" front wheel...
My goal for the next event is to figure out how to optimize what I've got. This means taking my angle indicator and playing around with the rear wing's angle of attack to find the perfect tradeoff between downforce and drag (hopefully my G2X datalogger will help in this department). This also means figuring out how to use a tire pyrometer and optimizing tire pressures and figuring out approximately how much more camber I need to dial in.
Based on my impressions at the next event, I will most likely install the front MY2008 springs, install rear SPC Camber Kit, then get the car realigned once the front springs settle (if I buy them new). I figure if I still want more rear grip, I could always swap out rear sway bar later which shouldn't affect my alignment at all.
This should be interesting...
Right now I've got a stock MY2003 S2000 with the following point modifications:
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing
1.50 = Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R Tires
That's a total of 2.75 points out of the 5.00 points possible to stay in Street Class. Where I'd like to go in terms of point modifications:
1.25 = APR GTC-200 Wing
3.50 = DOT-R Tires (Toyo R888 or Nitto NT-01)
0.25 = OEM CR or APR GT Front Bumper
I think the DOT-R tires will give me a definite advantage over running street tires, especially in the summer heat when even the best street tires will start overheating within a few laps. Supposedly, they are worth about 2 seconds at Buttonwillow, but I am willing to bet that the difference is larger than that, especially once the car is optimized for R-compounds. Also, I am going to try a little trick to get the staggered 225/255 tire setup to behave more like a nonstaggered setup by increasing the grip of the 225 tires (by putting them on AP2 rear wheels with a 10mm spacer to get 17x8.5 +55). Also, I plan to get a CR front end or APR GT front bumper to increase downforce in the front as well.
Of course right now I've also got a good amount of "free" modifications, that is, modifications that don't count as points:
SPC Camber Kit Front
4 x AP2 Rear Wheels (Front and Rear)
Carbotech XP10/XP8 Brake Pads
Goodridge SS Lines
Recaro SPG on Taitec Rails
K&N Drop-In Filter
I'd also like to make some changes in terms of the "free" modifications.
Add SPC Camber Kit in the rear
Upgrade to Carbotech XP12/XP10 Brake Pads
Replace with StopTech SS Lines
Replace with MY2008 Front Suspension
Replace with MY2004+ Rear Swaybar
When I had the front SPC Camber Kit installed, I had hoped that I would be able to get around -2.8 camber in the rear so I could run -2.5 front and -2.8 rear. Unfortunately, while the rear right was able to get -2.8, the rear left maxed out at only -2.4. This was the weak link that forced me to go with -2.4 all around. My current alignment specs:
Front Camber: -2.4
Front Castor: 6.5
Front Toe: 0
Rear Camber: -2.4
Rear Toe: 1/8" toe-in
From my last session at Streets of Willow, I felt like the car was a bit too loose, especially without the help of the rear wing in low-speed turns (30-60mph). I would get corner entry oversteer, mid-corner understeer that would sometimes snap out, then corner exit oversteer. So mostly oversteer that required a very careful right foot and lots of correction to the steering wheel. Running worn-down RE-01Rs probably didn't help the cause here.
I really don't want to solve the problem with messing with camber. I believe that there is an optimum camber angle for a given tire and suspension setup, and messing with it to adjust handling characteristics will result in less grip. That means I'll be out there next event with a probe-type tire pyrometer to measure the temperature spread across the tire. I'll be doing this especially if I upgrade to DOT-R. I am willing to bet that both the front and rear tires will want more negative camber, which will necessitate me installing the SPC Camber Kit in the rear.
Next, to tackle the oversteer issue, I think I will try installing MY2008 front suspension (hopefully the whole coilover if I can find a used set for a good price, otherwise just the spring). This will increase the front spring rate from 249lbs/in to 284lbs/in. Yes, that seems like only a little, but my spring rate ratio would go from 249/306 to a much more manageable 284/306 (almost equal spring rates all around). If this doesn't solve the problem, I may opt to install a thinner rear sway bar, either by swapping sway bars with Fil (from 27.2mm to 26.5mm) or buying a 2004+ rear bar (27.2mm to 25.4mm).
I also think that the extra grip of the R-compounds will require an upgrade to the brake pads. From Carbotech XP10/XP8 to a more temperature resistant XP12/XP10, which also has more bite. As far as brakes, I've never been satisfied with the feel of my brakes. I think I will do a complete brake job sometime in late May or early June involving a complete brake caliper rebuild, replace the Goodridge SS kit with some made by StopTech or Endless, adjust the parking brake, inspect the lines, etc. There is a weak link somewhere, and I will find it (I suspect it may be as simple as a parking brake adjustment).
The next event coming up is S2KC #5 at Buttonwillow Raceway. When I was last there with Redline, I was able to do a 2:12.9 with a passenger and a bit of traffic at the end. I think without a passenger and without running into traffic, I would have done a 2:11.7 or so. Supposedly a wing is worth about 4 seconds at Buttonwillow, and R-comps are worth about 2 seconds, so if I everything goes well and I can get my act together, I stand to lose 6 seconds or so next time, which would put me in the 2:05 range. Last Buttonwillow event, Street Class was won with Emilio's best lap of 2:06.9. I'm sure he's got some new tricks up his sleeve, so it should be an interesting match... not that I would hold such lofty dreams of actually winning Street Class... not yet at least.
In preparation for this next event, I need to order some new rear pads. Since I'm planning on going up a step, I will order XP10 rear pads (so I can order XP12 front replacement when the time comes). Then, I need to acquire 4xAP2 rear wheels and get some DOT-R's mounted on them. I will either have to machine out two wheels to fit the front 70.1mm bore, or I might run a 5mm spacer in the front. Who knows, maybe I'll get lazy and just run the 225 R-comp on the 7" front wheel...
My goal for the next event is to figure out how to optimize what I've got. This means taking my angle indicator and playing around with the rear wing's angle of attack to find the perfect tradeoff between downforce and drag (hopefully my G2X datalogger will help in this department). This also means figuring out how to use a tire pyrometer and optimizing tire pressures and figuring out approximately how much more camber I need to dial in.
Based on my impressions at the next event, I will most likely install the front MY2008 springs, install rear SPC Camber Kit, then get the car realigned once the front springs settle (if I buy them new). I figure if I still want more rear grip, I could always swap out rear sway bar later which shouldn't affect my alignment at all.
This should be interesting...
Sunday, April 12, 2009
Streets of Willow
This past Friday (April 10, 2009), Fil and I went out to Streets of Willow Springs. This was a joint event with SpeedVentures and Redline Track Events. We stayed at the Town House Motel in Lancaster as usual the night before. I like Town House Motel because it is considerably cheaper than the SpeedVentures-sponsored Inn of Lancaster, and Town House Motel gives you little freebies that make you chuckle. Like free travel aspirin, tampons and granola bar. They clearly know whats up. Unfortunately, when I was showering, I found a stand of red hair stuck over the bathtub drain. Uh, I don't even like redheads, so don't look at me...
Since SpeedVentures was also hosting an event at Thunderhill (Willows, CA) on Saturday, Aaron had to hit the road after lunch, at which point the Redline crew would take over. Now, I am a huge fan of Aaron and SpeedVentures. Redline, not so much. I feel like the SpeedVentures crew are the professionals of HPDE hosting out in California. Aaron is super competent and business minded, everyone is very professional, and they do little things to make the day more pleasant. Like freely giving out passes to other run groups that aren't full. Like free bottled water and lunch. Last time I went to an event with Redline, I had to pay over $20 out of pocket to buy the overpriced lunch and $3 bottles of water throughout the day. This past weekend with SpeedVentures, I never had to pull out my wallet at all. It's a nice feeling.
Sure, one could argue that you could just bring your own lunch and your own bottles of water. But I bet you that person doesn't drive an S2000 to the track. You try to haul all your tools, jack, jackstand, brakes, rotors, etc. in the measly five cubic feet of trunk space. Try it, then see how much room is left over for an ice chest. Come to think of it, I don't think I could even fit my ice chest in an empty S2000 trunk.
Anyway, the point is this: when Aaron said that the SpeedVentures crew were going to leave in the afternoon, I had an ominous feeling. Redline guys, in comparison, seem total amateur. I don't know why, but for some reason there seem to be less point-bys, more offs and more serious collisions in Redline events than SpeedVentures events. Maybe people who track with Redline just have more testosterone. Or maybe they have more ego than talent. Who knows...
Well, during the fourth Black Group session (after the SpeedVentures guys had left), a Porsche started smoking on the track. The driver was quickly meatballed (a flag that says, "hey your car is breaking down and you better pull off the track so you don't spill your guts all over the track and make it slippery for other people"). Well, either the driver didn't see the flag, or didn't want to get dirt on his precious Porsche so he continued on his merry way spilling coolant right at the blind crest leading into the esses. What happened next was a massacre.
A 350Z slid over the coolant, was launched sideways, and somehow managed to avoid wrecking his car. A Suzuka Blue S2000 was not so lucky. He entered the esses going over 100mph, pitched sideways, hit the dirt berm on the right and was launched 5 feet in the air and landed 20 feet downstream shedding bits and pieces of its body all over the track. Fil also lost control and after seeing the fat of the Suzuka, elected to spin the other way. Then the Silver S2000 lost it and slid sideways into the dirt berm crushing the left side of his car. I somehow managed to keep the car straight (maybe the four cars that traveled before me managed to clear out some of the coolant making it less slippery).
Upon questioning, it turns out that the Porsche driver knew he had a radiator hose that would intermittently come off. I am absolutely amazed at his negligence. Wait, you knew you had a problem with your car that could spill this super slippery fluid all over the track and you not only took it out to the track with this problem, but also stubbornly decided to keep the car on track while your car was smoking and after being flagged knowing full well that you were spilling coolant all over? Thanks to your amazing judgment, we've got three damaged S2000s, one of which is completely totaled.
Fil's car only suffered minor damage. His two right tires became unseated from the wheel, and had to be remounted, and his front control arm was bent. Luckily, there was no frame damage nor any serious body damage at all. But still, what a headache that could have been avoided with some common sense and dignity and respect for fellow drivers. Hopefully, Aaron will handle this appropriately. I think this Porsche driver needs to be suspended from future events. I mean, he did indefinitely terminate the Suzuka's track time.
Aside from this major catastrophe, the rest of the day went rather smoothly. I was able to test out my new APR GTC-200 wing, but because I hadn't driven this course before in this configuration, I had no baseline for comparison. From what I can tell, I am now slightly understeering during high-speed turns, then oversteering as I lose the aerodynamic downforce in low-speed turns. But at a place like Streets of Willow where the road is so uneven and there are so many camber changes, it is hard to tell what's really going on.
Something happened this day that I want to remember. During my last session, it started to sprinkle and the track became just a little bit damp. As I drove through the series of turns leading into the bowl, I went just a bit faster than I would have if I had realized the track was slightly damp. Up to this point, I thought I had figured out the limits of my car. Any faster than this set speed and I would oversteer or understeer at certain parts of the track. But during that brief moment, my car reached a new level.
It wasn't oversteering or understeering in that just the rear tires or front tires were sliding. Rather, all four tires were sliding at approximately the same rate. It was nothing like the sliding around I had done previously. Instead, the tires were slipping just the right amount to produce levels of grip I had not felt before, even for the damp conditions. I was on the very edge, and I could manipulate where the car would go by the slightest of throttle and steering adjustments. At that moment, the car was under my control in a completely different level. I wasn't merely piloting the car, instead the car was an extension of me.
Reflecting back on this moment, I realize that this is probably where professional racers are 100% of the time. Not just in those corners leading up to the bowl, but everywhere. And not just at corner entry, or mid-corner, or corner exit, but throughout the corner. Slipping ever so slightly at the very edge of maximum adhesion, walking that fine tightrope in the windy fog. At that moment, I developed a profound respect for these drivers that are in this zone for an entire race with all the distractions of having to fend off competitors. I tried the best I could to find that zone again, but all I got was understeer, oversteer, countersteer and just sloppy driving.
At the end, my best time of the day was a 1:30.596, which is a decent time, but not nearly as fast as I could or should be going. I hope to be in the sub 1:30s next time.
Since SpeedVentures was also hosting an event at Thunderhill (Willows, CA) on Saturday, Aaron had to hit the road after lunch, at which point the Redline crew would take over. Now, I am a huge fan of Aaron and SpeedVentures. Redline, not so much. I feel like the SpeedVentures crew are the professionals of HPDE hosting out in California. Aaron is super competent and business minded, everyone is very professional, and they do little things to make the day more pleasant. Like freely giving out passes to other run groups that aren't full. Like free bottled water and lunch. Last time I went to an event with Redline, I had to pay over $20 out of pocket to buy the overpriced lunch and $3 bottles of water throughout the day. This past weekend with SpeedVentures, I never had to pull out my wallet at all. It's a nice feeling.
Sure, one could argue that you could just bring your own lunch and your own bottles of water. But I bet you that person doesn't drive an S2000 to the track. You try to haul all your tools, jack, jackstand, brakes, rotors, etc. in the measly five cubic feet of trunk space. Try it, then see how much room is left over for an ice chest. Come to think of it, I don't think I could even fit my ice chest in an empty S2000 trunk.
Anyway, the point is this: when Aaron said that the SpeedVentures crew were going to leave in the afternoon, I had an ominous feeling. Redline guys, in comparison, seem total amateur. I don't know why, but for some reason there seem to be less point-bys, more offs and more serious collisions in Redline events than SpeedVentures events. Maybe people who track with Redline just have more testosterone. Or maybe they have more ego than talent. Who knows...
Well, during the fourth Black Group session (after the SpeedVentures guys had left), a Porsche started smoking on the track. The driver was quickly meatballed (a flag that says, "hey your car is breaking down and you better pull off the track so you don't spill your guts all over the track and make it slippery for other people"). Well, either the driver didn't see the flag, or didn't want to get dirt on his precious Porsche so he continued on his merry way spilling coolant right at the blind crest leading into the esses. What happened next was a massacre.
A 350Z slid over the coolant, was launched sideways, and somehow managed to avoid wrecking his car. A Suzuka Blue S2000 was not so lucky. He entered the esses going over 100mph, pitched sideways, hit the dirt berm on the right and was launched 5 feet in the air and landed 20 feet downstream shedding bits and pieces of its body all over the track. Fil also lost control and after seeing the fat of the Suzuka, elected to spin the other way. Then the Silver S2000 lost it and slid sideways into the dirt berm crushing the left side of his car. I somehow managed to keep the car straight (maybe the four cars that traveled before me managed to clear out some of the coolant making it less slippery).
Upon questioning, it turns out that the Porsche driver knew he had a radiator hose that would intermittently come off. I am absolutely amazed at his negligence. Wait, you knew you had a problem with your car that could spill this super slippery fluid all over the track and you not only took it out to the track with this problem, but also stubbornly decided to keep the car on track while your car was smoking and after being flagged knowing full well that you were spilling coolant all over? Thanks to your amazing judgment, we've got three damaged S2000s, one of which is completely totaled.
Fil's car only suffered minor damage. His two right tires became unseated from the wheel, and had to be remounted, and his front control arm was bent. Luckily, there was no frame damage nor any serious body damage at all. But still, what a headache that could have been avoided with some common sense and dignity and respect for fellow drivers. Hopefully, Aaron will handle this appropriately. I think this Porsche driver needs to be suspended from future events. I mean, he did indefinitely terminate the Suzuka's track time.
Aside from this major catastrophe, the rest of the day went rather smoothly. I was able to test out my new APR GTC-200 wing, but because I hadn't driven this course before in this configuration, I had no baseline for comparison. From what I can tell, I am now slightly understeering during high-speed turns, then oversteering as I lose the aerodynamic downforce in low-speed turns. But at a place like Streets of Willow where the road is so uneven and there are so many camber changes, it is hard to tell what's really going on.
Something happened this day that I want to remember. During my last session, it started to sprinkle and the track became just a little bit damp. As I drove through the series of turns leading into the bowl, I went just a bit faster than I would have if I had realized the track was slightly damp. Up to this point, I thought I had figured out the limits of my car. Any faster than this set speed and I would oversteer or understeer at certain parts of the track. But during that brief moment, my car reached a new level.
It wasn't oversteering or understeering in that just the rear tires or front tires were sliding. Rather, all four tires were sliding at approximately the same rate. It was nothing like the sliding around I had done previously. Instead, the tires were slipping just the right amount to produce levels of grip I had not felt before, even for the damp conditions. I was on the very edge, and I could manipulate where the car would go by the slightest of throttle and steering adjustments. At that moment, the car was under my control in a completely different level. I wasn't merely piloting the car, instead the car was an extension of me.
Reflecting back on this moment, I realize that this is probably where professional racers are 100% of the time. Not just in those corners leading up to the bowl, but everywhere. And not just at corner entry, or mid-corner, or corner exit, but throughout the corner. Slipping ever so slightly at the very edge of maximum adhesion, walking that fine tightrope in the windy fog. At that moment, I developed a profound respect for these drivers that are in this zone for an entire race with all the distractions of having to fend off competitors. I tried the best I could to find that zone again, but all I got was understeer, oversteer, countersteer and just sloppy driving.
At the end, my best time of the day was a 1:30.596, which is a decent time, but not nearly as fast as I could or should be going. I hope to be in the sub 1:30s next time.
Thursday, April 9, 2009
Why I bought an S2000
I am beginning a journal for my car. I have always wanted to keep one, but I have been too busy and lazy (actually just the latter). I want to keep a journal so that I can remember some of the history behind the car that I've always wanted since I was 16, and finally bought when I was 25.
In the spring of 2008 my current car, a 2000 Nighthawk Black Pearl Honda Prelude 5MT, was beginning to show its age in many ways. It would soon be the summer before I would start medical school, somewhere in California (I had been waiting on Loma Linda, UCLA and UCD) or Chicago (I had been accepted to UIC and CMS). My friend Nino had just purchased a 2007 Grand Prix White S2000. Though he thought he was doing me a favor by letting me buzz around town in his newly acquired sports roadster, it caused me great agony and grief and extreme jealousy.
I thought to myself: Here I am, working my butt off trying to get into medical school, and I will probably slave away another 10 years before I am ever financially secure! I thought it the biggest injustice that I would have to work so hard for a future so distant whereas others just out of college could afford to move on with their lives. They could earn money, save money, get married, buy a house--but far, far more importantly (at least in my mind at that moment), buy a Honda S2000. If I am going to retain any sanity whatsoever in the future years, I am going to have to buy an S2000 of my own. Right now.
I was so consumed by my desire for an S2000 that I probably spent the better half of my workday scouring Autotrader, E-Bay, S2Ki, Honda Certified Pre-Owned, and Craigslist just to name a few. I blew off project deadlines, missed timetables for experiments, conveniently forgot to go to meetings all for this very cause. If I was going to satisfy this burning desire, this car would have to be perfect. Exactly the way I've always wanted it.
It would have to be a 2003 model year. The 2003 models were last of the AP1 chassis with a super high-strung 2.0L 9000RPM engine and quick steering ratio. Starting 2004 (and continuously on with changes in 2006 and 2008) the S2000s were watered down because too many fat, ham-fisted Americans couldn't get the "puny torqueless engine" to haul their 240lb carcasses around the Malibu Canyons safely enough. They would either stall going uphill or the twitchy suspension would swap ends around a corner and send them over the hill to their doom.
So the Honda Corp. lawyers gathered together with the engineers and decided: This sports roadster is clearly too raw for the Americans to handle. We must increase the size of the engine to 2.2L to give the American people more torque. We must revise spring rates and rear suspension geometry so that the car now understeers around corners (at least if they plow headfirst over the hill they can't blame us for building an "unstable" car). Heck, we'll even give them stability and traction control. Their fat hands are clearly are not articulate enough with steering inputs so we must decrease the steering ratio. But most importantly, we must shave the door panels and center console so that their bellies can fit more comfortably in the cabin.
Besides, it's not called an S2200. The S2000's F20C motor won acclaim because it was able to make more horsepower per liter than any other naturally aspirated mass-produced four-stroke engine ever made. A staggering 120 horsepower per liter. For comparison, if the 2003 Dodge Viper had that kind of specific output, it would be making nearly 1000hp instead of 500. The F20C also had a wicked 9000RPM redline, which meant that it would reach piston speeds of 4965ft/min, the highest ever. This is the about the same piston speed as a 2.4L V8 Formula 1 engine at its redline of 19,000RPMs.
It would have to be Grand Prix White. My last car was black and I was sick of waxing and polishing the car and seeing every dust and imperfection magnified on its black canvas in a matter of days. Grand Prix White is also the cleanest and best shade of white I have ever seen. It's name even alludes to Honda's heritage in and previous dominance of the Formula 1 Grand Prix. This paint choice, however, would require a huge sacrifice. In 2000-2002, the interior color combination with GPW was red. Beginning 2003, they decided on a much more European tan. Yuck. But I figured it would be easier and cleaner to swap interior panels, carpet and seats with someone who grew tired of red interior than to repaint Silverstone (the color that came with the red interior combination in 2003). Fine, whatever.
Speaking of obstacles, there was that one little issue of not knowing where I was headed. I had been accepted to two schools in Chicago, but so far no acceptances to sunny California. I had visited Chicago most recently in mid-January, and it was a blistering -6F with 30-40mph winds. With the wind chill factor, it was the coldest Chicago had ever been in years. I knew an S2000 would not be a wise choice for a place like Chicago where they salt the roads and the windshields crack due to extreme cold. I figured, I'll start shopping for an S2000 now since I have three schools in California I'm still waiting on--I'm bound to get into one of them. So as an acceptance present to myself, I'll buy an S2000.
Except I found one a bit too soon. A single-owner 2003 GPW with only 17,000 miles. Driven around as a golfing/weekend car by a retired 68-yr old pediatrician up in Oregon. Never driven during the winter (he had another coupe, sedan and SUV for general purpose use). Asking price within budget. Could anyone ask for more? I still hadn't heard back from the California schools, but I made an executive decision to go for it. I'll worry about staying in California later. Besides, even if I don't, I won't mind putting the car in storage six months out of the year and walking to school in the snow in -6F and 40mph. I would just have to make such sacrifices for this car. If I miss this opportunity, I'll probably never get another chance to drive an S2000 and my teenage dream would just have to die along with any passion I have for life and living. Just kidding ... sorta.
So I called up Nino and pretty much swindled him to flying up to Oregon with me. I bought the plane tickets and went on a flight straight to ... uh, Salt Lake City. Then we walked over to the terminal to our connecting flight. Except it wasn't a terminal. It was more like a parking lot. And instead of a Boeing Jet, it was more like a 15-seater toy plane. And instead of regular sized seats, they were more like oversized child seats. And instead of normal sized people, it was more like 400-lb Polynesian ukulele players. Good thing the flight was only 45 minutes. Felt like 45 hours.
We finally arrived in Salem, OR. Except the airport wasn't really an airport, more like an annex building. The pilot opened the door, walked us over to the building, took out the keys from his pocket and unlocked the door and turned on the lights. OMGWTFBBQ. So this is how it's done in Oregon's capitol? No wonder Oregon is the only state that allows physician assisted suicides.
Too cheap to call a cab, we walked from the ghetto bus-stop of an airport to the nearest motel in pitch dark, no sidewalk and no street lamps. I felt like I was going to either get jumped by ninjas or bitten by a rattlesnake. Instead, we got hollered at by some college kids as they drove by: "Hey Ching Chong Chang!" Nice. Clearly, Oregonians are kind, classy, well educated folk. A few more blocks away, we found a Howard Johnson Inn.
The next day:
I signed all the paperwork, and soon I was on my way. We gassed up at the nearest Chevron and hit the freeway. As I merged onto the freeway, I revved the engine to 9000RPM in 2nd year, then 3rd and soon I was doing almost 90mph as I cut through a couple lanes to avoid slower traffic. I also cut off a state trooper who was not so amused. I begged, pleaded, showed him the bill of sale, and finally managed to get out a speeding ticket or worse. Apparently I had merged onto a stretch of highway that was undergoing construction and its speed limit was now 45mph instead of 65. Yikes.
Many, many hours of going exactly 65mph later:
In the spring of 2008 my current car, a 2000 Nighthawk Black Pearl Honda Prelude 5MT, was beginning to show its age in many ways. It would soon be the summer before I would start medical school, somewhere in California (I had been waiting on Loma Linda, UCLA and UCD) or Chicago (I had been accepted to UIC and CMS). My friend Nino had just purchased a 2007 Grand Prix White S2000. Though he thought he was doing me a favor by letting me buzz around town in his newly acquired sports roadster, it caused me great agony and grief and extreme jealousy.
I thought to myself: Here I am, working my butt off trying to get into medical school, and I will probably slave away another 10 years before I am ever financially secure! I thought it the biggest injustice that I would have to work so hard for a future so distant whereas others just out of college could afford to move on with their lives. They could earn money, save money, get married, buy a house--but far, far more importantly (at least in my mind at that moment), buy a Honda S2000. If I am going to retain any sanity whatsoever in the future years, I am going to have to buy an S2000 of my own. Right now.
I was so consumed by my desire for an S2000 that I probably spent the better half of my workday scouring Autotrader, E-Bay, S2Ki, Honda Certified Pre-Owned, and Craigslist just to name a few. I blew off project deadlines, missed timetables for experiments, conveniently forgot to go to meetings all for this very cause. If I was going to satisfy this burning desire, this car would have to be perfect. Exactly the way I've always wanted it.
It would have to be a 2003 model year. The 2003 models were last of the AP1 chassis with a super high-strung 2.0L 9000RPM engine and quick steering ratio. Starting 2004 (and continuously on with changes in 2006 and 2008) the S2000s were watered down because too many fat, ham-fisted Americans couldn't get the "puny torqueless engine" to haul their 240lb carcasses around the Malibu Canyons safely enough. They would either stall going uphill or the twitchy suspension would swap ends around a corner and send them over the hill to their doom.
So the Honda Corp. lawyers gathered together with the engineers and decided: This sports roadster is clearly too raw for the Americans to handle. We must increase the size of the engine to 2.2L to give the American people more torque. We must revise spring rates and rear suspension geometry so that the car now understeers around corners (at least if they plow headfirst over the hill they can't blame us for building an "unstable" car). Heck, we'll even give them stability and traction control. Their fat hands are clearly are not articulate enough with steering inputs so we must decrease the steering ratio. But most importantly, we must shave the door panels and center console so that their bellies can fit more comfortably in the cabin.
Besides, it's not called an S2200. The S2000's F20C motor won acclaim because it was able to make more horsepower per liter than any other naturally aspirated mass-produced four-stroke engine ever made. A staggering 120 horsepower per liter. For comparison, if the 2003 Dodge Viper had that kind of specific output, it would be making nearly 1000hp instead of 500. The F20C also had a wicked 9000RPM redline, which meant that it would reach piston speeds of 4965ft/min, the highest ever. This is the about the same piston speed as a 2.4L V8 Formula 1 engine at its redline of 19,000RPMs.
It would have to be Grand Prix White. My last car was black and I was sick of waxing and polishing the car and seeing every dust and imperfection magnified on its black canvas in a matter of days. Grand Prix White is also the cleanest and best shade of white I have ever seen. It's name even alludes to Honda's heritage in and previous dominance of the Formula 1 Grand Prix. This paint choice, however, would require a huge sacrifice. In 2000-2002, the interior color combination with GPW was red. Beginning 2003, they decided on a much more European tan. Yuck. But I figured it would be easier and cleaner to swap interior panels, carpet and seats with someone who grew tired of red interior than to repaint Silverstone (the color that came with the red interior combination in 2003). Fine, whatever.
Speaking of obstacles, there was that one little issue of not knowing where I was headed. I had been accepted to two schools in Chicago, but so far no acceptances to sunny California. I had visited Chicago most recently in mid-January, and it was a blistering -6F with 30-40mph winds. With the wind chill factor, it was the coldest Chicago had ever been in years. I knew an S2000 would not be a wise choice for a place like Chicago where they salt the roads and the windshields crack due to extreme cold. I figured, I'll start shopping for an S2000 now since I have three schools in California I'm still waiting on--I'm bound to get into one of them. So as an acceptance present to myself, I'll buy an S2000.
Except I found one a bit too soon. A single-owner 2003 GPW with only 17,000 miles. Driven around as a golfing/weekend car by a retired 68-yr old pediatrician up in Oregon. Never driven during the winter (he had another coupe, sedan and SUV for general purpose use). Asking price within budget. Could anyone ask for more? I still hadn't heard back from the California schools, but I made an executive decision to go for it. I'll worry about staying in California later. Besides, even if I don't, I won't mind putting the car in storage six months out of the year and walking to school in the snow in -6F and 40mph. I would just have to make such sacrifices for this car. If I miss this opportunity, I'll probably never get another chance to drive an S2000 and my teenage dream would just have to die along with any passion I have for life and living. Just kidding ... sorta.
So I called up Nino and pretty much swindled him to flying up to Oregon with me. I bought the plane tickets and went on a flight straight to ... uh, Salt Lake City. Then we walked over to the terminal to our connecting flight. Except it wasn't a terminal. It was more like a parking lot. And instead of a Boeing Jet, it was more like a 15-seater toy plane. And instead of regular sized seats, they were more like oversized child seats. And instead of normal sized people, it was more like 400-lb Polynesian ukulele players. Good thing the flight was only 45 minutes. Felt like 45 hours.
We finally arrived in Salem, OR. Except the airport wasn't really an airport, more like an annex building. The pilot opened the door, walked us over to the building, took out the keys from his pocket and unlocked the door and turned on the lights. OMGWTFBBQ. So this is how it's done in Oregon's capitol? No wonder Oregon is the only state that allows physician assisted suicides.
Trust me, you don't want to go in there.
Too cheap to call a cab, we walked from the ghetto bus-stop of an airport to the nearest motel in pitch dark, no sidewalk and no street lamps. I felt like I was going to either get jumped by ninjas or bitten by a rattlesnake. Instead, we got hollered at by some college kids as they drove by: "Hey Ching Chong Chang!" Nice. Clearly, Oregonians are kind, classy, well educated folk. A few more blocks away, we found a Howard Johnson Inn.
The next day:
I signed all the paperwork, and soon I was on my way. We gassed up at the nearest Chevron and hit the freeway. As I merged onto the freeway, I revved the engine to 9000RPM in 2nd year, then 3rd and soon I was doing almost 90mph as I cut through a couple lanes to avoid slower traffic. I also cut off a state trooper who was not so amused. I begged, pleaded, showed him the bill of sale, and finally managed to get out a speeding ticket or worse. Apparently I had merged onto a stretch of highway that was undergoing construction and its speed limit was now 45mph instead of 65. Yikes.
Many, many hours of going exactly 65mph later:
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